February 5, 2007
It’s just not right!!
The Football Federation of Tasmania has a DUTY OF CARE to the players participating in their development programmes. I question the value of injecting a team of 14-15 year old players into a senior mens’ competition in the hope of preparing them to participate in National Championships.
A comparison might be to give a hoon a more powerful car so that he can be understand the handling of the vehicle and therefore be better prepared when on the national highways. Most of us in society would say this would be plainly idiotic. I would suggest putting a team of kids into a highly competitive mens’ competition would have similar value. It’s at best, highly risky, if not extremely dangerous.
14-15 year old bodies are not built to take the physical & psychological rigors associated with playing the game at this level. Last year they played at U/19…this is far more acceptable than in a competitive senior mens comp. If the State U/15 team dominated the U/19 comp we could reasonably say, “Ok, these boys are way above this standard”, but they’re not, and they didn’t. On too many occasions they were found wanting especially in the physical aspects of the game. It’s going to be 10 times worse at Div.1 level. These guys are used to throwing their bodies into tackles. They have the physical capacity to do so for the entire season. My 14 year old son doesn’t so to expect him to do so is plainly unreasonable and I would suggest contradicts FFT’s duty of care.
To now raise the bar of expectation is just too much. The idea might be reasonable but the practice will cause far too much stress & strain on young developing bodies over a prolonged period of a full season. There are some 14-15 year old players who are nowhere near their physical maturity to stand the demands that will be required. The whole purpose will negated if at the time of the Nationals 3-4 players are incapacitated. Tasmania does not have the depth of talent to tolerate these losses as any one who has been a member of the coaching team of past squad will attest. Once you get past the first team (12-13 players) the standard starts to drop off. So the entire concept will be defeated.
Winning isn’t everything Mr Abela & Co. these lads will want to go and form senior teams of the future. Don’t cripple them before they have the chance to do so.
It would appear that last u15 State Team playing in the U19 competition was the best competition for them, in preparation for the Nationals. This years team is not allowed to play in the U19’s because the Premier League Clubs won’t let them.
Comment by DeB8 — February 5, 2007 @ 10:41 am
Oh, so the Premier League clubs run the competition do they?? No, it wasn’t organised well enough by FFT.
Comment by Blackjack — February 5, 2007 @ 10:50 am
for so many years soccer tas tried not to develope the younger players of the game by not letting them play 2 divisions above their age group. now 14 and 15 yo are playing against adults to get them ready for the nationals. this could be good for the young kids games but have you seen the type of takles some players dish out in the div 1 competition, not to good. im all for developing the youngsters but this is just stupid
Comment by corky — February 5, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
All I’ll say is whilst 95% of funds may go to junior development, 80% of those kids wont still be playing soccer once they’re over 21.
Comment by Richard — February 5, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
Looks likethey have amended the roster for Div.1 and the Under 15’s are not there anymore…
Comment by Vivailcalcio — February 5, 2007 @ 9:58 pm
We can only hope that commonsense has prevailed Vivailcalcio but I suspect you will see the squad pop up in the Northern preseason and/or to fill the bye in the Northern Premier comp (assuming that it still exits following the problems with Northern Eagles).
We’ll wait and see.
Comment by Blackjack — February 5, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
Why don’t we organize a national youth competition to be held in Tassie annually? Under 15 or similar? Would we be able to find the resources?
Comment by Vivailcalcio — February 6, 2007 @ 1:23 am
Having not visited the blog for a few weeks, I was not prepared for this issue.
Generally speaking, I try to see the various perspectives for management decisions, however one can only conclude that the intention for playing such young players against seasoned adults comes from a gross misunderstanding of the relevant physical and skill requirements.
Through experience, a player learns how to play firmly within the rules of the game and, more importantly, how to take or avoid similar firm approaches. Div1 Reserves is an excellent training ground in this regard for players from the U19 age group, and readies them for Div 1 or higher teams. It is far too early for the age group that is being mooted.
Further, as a parent, I would have great concern over allowing my child to be placed in such a situation at that age, and support the notion that the FFT have a responsibility to ensure that the players are not exposed to injury.
Comment by Mik — February 6, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
To quote blackjack:
” My 14 year old son doesn’t so to expect him to do so is plainly unreasonable and I would suggest contradicts FFT’s duty of care”
So is it reasonable to say from the above quote that you have a son in this years state u/15 team, and you do not want him to play in the suggested level?
Comment by Healthy debate — February 6, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
Why would that be reasonable??
Careful, you’re ASSUMING!!! You’re going to make an ass and out both of us!!! No, grasping at straws and getting way off the point there.
Comment by Blackjack — February 6, 2007 @ 10:07 pm
No not assuming, just putting a verse of your text into context.
Yes, playing that team at the suggested level, could or may have led to injuries, or also maybe not.
Why is this current group of players not playing within the local u/19 comp, as by reading the above posts last years team did?
If this was adequate preparation for past teams, why not this crop?
Comment by Healthy debate — February 6, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
“Why is this current group of players not playing within the local u/19 comp…”
Isn’t this a question you should put too FFT? I’m hardly in any position to respond with any degree of accuracy.
They could approach the clubs that have development programmes & most of their U/19 teams are development squads. I’m sure many of them would welcome matches against a state squad.
Comment by Blackjack — February 6, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
The official answer doesn’t concern me, much more fun to shoot from the hip. But from past experiences, I would suggest that club politics would have had something to do with that team not being nominated for u/19’s but instead allegedly div 1 mens.
Comment by Healthy debate — February 7, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
Would like to weigh in on this one also , clubs have no doubt indicated their total lack of support for a State team in the 19 comp - think SJ advised this as the conduit for Board of Directors and clubs .
State Coach wants his team playing in a weekly comp tries Div 1 even though this may mean a bye , club power through the blog and one would presume FFT has advised in no uncertain terms not happening - the clubs know best- find something else.
So next we come back to a proposal from sometime last year - forgot who but something similar to blackjack has suggested - play midweek against club 19 teams at the white elephant Grove Road - theplayers get to use a quality facility - as they so deserve - 19 teams can include true 19 players not just the normal 19 players but some of those playing higher - as such state team gets a better quality opposition - isn’t that what we all want ??
A win for all parties - well done Healthy and Blackjack had stopped participating on the blog because of the the lack of real debate - you guys have re invigorated my appetite .
Comment by sent off — February 7, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
G’Day Blackjack
Well this is an interesting one is it not? Having been a player involved in these programs a few years ago now and also a involved in the coaching side of a similar program (southern) a few years ago it is as a good friend of mine used to say ” the same but different”.
Many people have stated that the money spent on these teams etc is a waste, but lets be honest it is the only pathway that is ongoing (they do it regulary) and at least allows our youth who really think they have a chance to play at a higher level to see and experience their peers. My team had some very good players when I played, yet I think I am the only one who is still playing at any kind of level. There is one exception, a certain Brad Green who some of you would see on a friday or saturday during the AFL season, he was special…I digress though. I played seniors at 15, does this mean that all 15 year olds should? No. I was the same size then as I am now, not too
many 85kg 15 year olds running around. Expose the kids to senior soccer by all means, hopefully through their clubs (there is an original idea) and train them as a team with matches throughout the week or on a Sunday. Look at the number of our kids who are “identified” at these championships and we know that our kids do not have the quality coaches or programmes in place from a young age to allow them to be trained to be identified. If Tas finishes 1st or 8th does it really matter to anyone, other than FFT? and even if they do finish first what does it do for our game here in Tas? Taking kids away from thier clubs takes away the ability of the club to care and nuture kids into a situation that they are comfortable with and instead leaves them at the mercy and ad hoc management that sucks it and sees how the idea worked or backfired!
Thanks
Charlie
Comment by CW — February 7, 2007 @ 6:34 pm
Charlie, instead to put FFT down and be so negative … why don’t Clubs provide a good quality training ,competition and good opportunities for the young kids. Look I am not saying FFT is doing a good or a bad job but is trying to give the kids good preparation and opportunities to playing with the best in Australia where Clubs could not provide this. In the last 15yrs Les Bee started put a team (Coca Cola Squad) and was the best move could happen for the players. Clubs vote against it and Les Bee gone to Victorian Institute of Sport,now at the Australian Coaching council. David Smith also was trying to do so, D.Smith also gone to NNSW Coaching Director, it is a message here? this 2 people mentioned … both previously doing a good job are gone because of Clubs negative I would like to see all clubs to provide good environment for this young talent.
Comment by anonymous — February 7, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
I did not think i was being negative, and I was not putting down FFT, I was actually supporting their efforts in putting teams in a national identification situation, what i was questioning was the pathway that they provide being the best one, as we are talking about them having a team in div 1 or somewhere similar. They need to have a pathway that is effective, proven and above all suitable for the needs of those involved not those who are running it.
Kingborough has many of ouryouth players with a trip to Victoria, trials and training with clubs in Victoria, had a youth development officer for at least 5 years and these people have been quality people in Steve Chetcuti, Brad Hughes and now Billy Kendrick, I think that KLUSC, Clarence, Zebras and from what I am told Metro are doing a good job for thier clubs and players, simply have a look at their senior teams and you will find them full of thier youth players now
playing seniors. The difference is that we (club people) are not employed to do it. SO if the employees of FFT, whom I help to employ do not get a quality pathway in place can I not be negative about the job that they do, I think they work hard, but i do not think that they have a clear direction or plan that is longer than a season at a time. As far as I am aware it seems that FFT will do what they want anyway, does it not? put a team in div 1, pull them out, shake it all about, do the hokey pokey and we all fall down ( until next year) then
we do it again…
thanks
Charlie White
Comment by Charles White — February 8, 2007 @ 10:36 am
in all honesty it would be a better experience for the kids to play in the premier league, im saying this because the quality of soccer being minimal is better in the the premier league than in div 1. not to metion the takling, dont get me wrong all leagues will have bad takles but they dont come as often in premier league as they do in div 1.
Comment by corky — February 8, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Kingborough had/has a very worthwhile junior development programme prior to the introduction of FFT’s programme in 2006. If you want to know how good that programme was look at Kingborough current senior squads: Grant Bourne, Gordon Kerr, Chris Sanita, Mark Iseli, Marcello Marchioli, Chase McConnen, Brett Andrews, Jeremy Brown, Sam Griffiths, Chas Hughes, Michael Giomataris, James Correy, Michael Palmer, Stuart Morse, Tom McDonald, Alec Balcomb, Jack Watchorn, Daniel Jones, and the list goes on. All regional and/or state representatives.
The FFT programme ran roughshod over the top this programme without a word (NOT ONE WORD!!!) of consultation. KLUSC had worked hard to form links within the Kingborough community and as Charlie White alluded too, links had also been created with Victorian & NNSW clubs. Admittedly, these links haven’t been completely severed but a complete rethink has had to be conducted.
FFT admitted at the time they believed KLUSC was amoung the leaders of junior/youth development in Tasmania but nothing was said. In fact the FFT board accepted the development proposal in full from a power point presentation. There wasn’t any business or development plan. What were they thinking. Is this any way to run a business?
I just wonder where we are heading and what each new year will bring and if anyone has sat down with the clubs and discussed this from all perspectives so the negative impact will be minimised or at least managed more effectively.
As a father of a former state player (Chas Hughes) and the 2005 U15 state trainer I would have serious reservations about playing my boys in a Division One competition, even in the summer cup. I recall practice matches against senior squads where it was agreed the senior team would ‘take it easy’ to ensure the physical safety and continued well-being of the state team. This wasn’t a full time squad but their results were creditable.
Sorry SJ I’d question any risk taking venture too and including a squad in Division One would be a darn sight riskier than playing in an U19 competition or playing midweek matches against club’s development squads.
Comment by Lionheart — February 8, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
I call on FFT to convene a junior/youth summit chaired by a recognised ‘neutral’ businessperson with recognised conflict resolution skills so these issues can be discussed and thrashed out in an open forum. Submissions from interested parties could be made prior to the summit and a prepared submission from each club who are interested in player development at the time of the summit.
Yes, it will be hard work. Yes, it may cost a few dollars, but if something like this is not done we will continue to leap from one frying pan to another trying to avoid the fire on an annual basis. This is people’s lives you are playing with, it’s not just sport. Some of these kids could achieve full professional status if given the right opportunity.
Comment by Lionheart — February 8, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
I would suggest then, that if you call on FFt, then they won’t hear you from here!
Comment by Healthy debate — February 8, 2007 @ 7:49 pm
FFT are welcome to post at any time. SJ (a regular poster) is on the sharp end of FFT and probably a board member. I welcome his continued feedback.
There is no reason why ideas can’t come out of this forum as it is a legitimate forum for a football loving public be they club bound or a member of the general public with an interest in the success of our beautiful game.
I have also been made aware that certain members of the FFT office monitor this site on a daily basis. I welcome their feedback and opinion on any issue raised in this forum.
Comment by Blackjack — February 8, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
Rumors are that U15’s will be travelling to Victoria once a fortnight. This is a bit more often than had been initially rumoured but is interesting alternative to playing agst div one opponents.
Comment by sj — February 8, 2007 @ 11:47 pm
That would be interesting, i would say that tas premier league would be less harmful that any victorian league.
Comment by Borat — February 9, 2007 @ 11:01 pm
We have a real problem deciding what the correct path for our promising juniors should be.
I can’t understand why a parent or coach, FFT or Club, would allow a young 15/16 year old play senior soccer, or soccer in div 1.
My nephew is being urged to play some senior soccer through the summer cup(he is still 15)WHAT THE HELL ARE COAHES THINKING. He is nearly my size, but could be snapped very easily potentially ending what could be a promising career in the game. Their bodies and mind are not developed enough to cope with the physical nature of playing with men.
We see the best players in the world having to retire at an early age due to ongoing injury. Are they being pushed to early.
With all of the junior squads that I was part of, I remain the only player in premier league, statewide. Unlike my team mates I wasn’t allowed to play against men until I was 18. Most failed to make it to senior soccer, and for the few that did had to retire due to injuries.
Consider the likes of Anthony Guilbert and Brendon Lakoseljac. Both playing state league at the age of 16. Arguably the best strikers in the state over the past 20/25 years. Both constantly fighting injury.
Romeo Frediani is another that comes to mind.
I hope the u15’s play in Vic against talented players their own age. I’m not sure how this can be financed but it sure sounds better than playing against men.
Why does the FFT cease their development programme at 15. What happens to the talented 16/17 year old kids. Surely we can’t expect them to move straight into senior soccer.
Comment by Huigi — February 10, 2007 @ 8:41 am
i have a son playing football who at an early age showed potential, he was given the opportunity to push himself and step up to play at a level that he was capable of doing and all through this time we were given great advise from coaches and other experienced players, at all times it was my choice as to wether i allowed him to play,there was some pressure from some to move here or there however the choices we made have allowed him to develop and mature into a player who has represented his state & country. I beleive that the parents of these boys are no less informed or capable to make the best decision for their sons that will enable them to acheive all they want.
Comment by mt — February 10, 2007 @ 10:29 am
who’s your son?
Comment by Player — February 11, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
Very good topic this one, which is also being discussed under the Div 1 summer cup section. One person above mentioned a “junior/youth summit”, which in theory sounds good. The question has to asked why though? I seriously can’t see the effort in putting something of this nature in place when the real issues that need to be sorted are with how FFT is run and operated. Junior and youth development is a ‘program’ that FFT organise, facilitate, etc (an output of their business). Their is no point in fixing one area (program) without dealing with the heart of the problem first. A circular motion will continue and this “summit” will just be a patched effort and fall down in time, due to FFT not being correctly run. Junior development etc must be driven by FFT!!!!
Comment by Observer — February 13, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Have heard the state 15’s will play club 19s at KGV of a Thursday night. Commonsense finally reigns. Well done to the person who thought of that one.
Next question? Why can’t they play club of a Saturday??
Comment by Blackjack — February 13, 2007 @ 10:03 pm
U15’s playing clkub Under19’s in a match that doesnt count for competition points? The benefit of U15’s playing as part of the 2006 FFT U19 roster was that their opponenets were playing for points so that they fully contested every minute of every game, and therefore the U15’s had to learn to compete for the full 90 minutes against larger opponents. Cant see the Thursday night concept being as competitive, will the clubs risk players being injured that close to a real match 2 or 3 days later?
Comment by sj — February 13, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
I don’t agree with SJ’s comments some of the time but I support his remarks on this subject.
For the State or Rep side to succeed it must play against challenging opponents . Now I am sure we all agree on this .
What we differ on is whom should these young boys play .
Under 19, Div 1 Reserves , Div1, Premier reserves and so on .
Under 19 is the ideal opponent but not in a practice envrinment it has to be a full blooded event .
Problem this puts a bye in the Premier /Premier Reserves /Under 19 ( lets all play in little boxes) arrangements . S J may want it , FFT may want it but would the Premier Clubs agree . I doubt it otherwise the meetings earlier this year would have endorsed the suggestions put forward by Nelson . Refer many earlier Blogs.
Blackjack you may want to provide a link for those who wish to refresh their memory.
Comment by Brian — February 14, 2007 @ 6:50 pm
The state of play for football in Tasmania:
Clubs in Tasmania exsist purely to bring young players to the point where they tweek the interest of State/Regional coaches. At this time they hand over any responsibility or club ties or connections so that they can be trained to work as a team so they can make Tasmania look good at National titles.
Can someone please tell me what winning a national title do for football in Tasmania?? Will it provide a better standard in club football (although I would imagine most players will be too good to play in Tasmania)? Will the young players demonstrate a greater commitment to their club? Will the younger player in a club be able to identify with their older clubmates and thus develop that identified ‘hero’ worship?
What will winning a national championship do for football in Tasmania?
Comment by Blackjack — February 14, 2007 @ 7:48 pm
I reckon this must be the fifth or sixth time the issue of Under 19 v club and when where they should play has been raised on this blog , under various headings .
This just indicates the different feeling from both parent - player - club and the governing body have about the issue.
FFT can’t decide the best format for 14 turning 15 year old boys to participate in neither can the clubs from the info on here.- what does seem to be evident is that it has to be a southern competition and that the they can’t have anything to do with clubs ( believe this is the coaches and FFT reasoning, apologies if i have interpreted this wrong )
One has to ask the question;
1. Is the State team about developing players or preparation for Nationals ?
Blackjack has given his view numerous occasions - but he is biased against the current proposed FFT program, HE IS A strong supporter of club system , he is no doubt aligned to a club with a strong development program I like others have some symphathy for the clubs who have the volunteer base to run such programs.
The answer to above should assist with the playing requirements of the players in this program.
I did what was suggested and read the previous submitted papers on the blog re the issue and then went to other State Fed web sites to try and find out what they do with State teams ;
It appears that only South Aust and ACT enter teams in comps , both states have had very strong performances at National Champs - FFA web site National Champ results.
None of the others in the main due it appears in respect to distance involved for players to train and and play does not make it feasible , or in NSW clubs refuse it to happen.
Folks i cannot provide a definative answer , but i do believe like others it is time for somebody with authority to make a long term decision provide a pathway for these players ending the continual debate and short term finger in the dyke decisions like this year
Comment by sent off — February 14, 2007 @ 10:01 pm
Great to see so much passion about the subject. This years pathway for the U14 and U15 State team may not be perfect, but it’s here to stay (for this season at least). So lets hope that the Clubs get behind the boys and give them the best possible games every week. It may only be a practice match for the u 19’s, but I hope the clubs support the State Team to give them a proper workout.
Someone questioned whether the current system was about player development or winning a national title? In regards to the u15’s who came 11th out of 12 last year, I don’t believe that they are going into this year thinking that they are going to be the National Champions. However Individually they all have dreams about being spotted by a scout and they want to do the best they can. If the team does well, then there is more chance that of one or more players reaching their dreams, as Tasmanians will be held in a more positive light.
Evidents seems to be that full time squads work. South Australia won the U14’s and were runners up in U15’s.
ACT came came a very credible 5th in the U14’s and 4th in the under 15’s and like Tassie they are supposed to be traditional easybeats.
Sure the Full Time U14’s last year came 11th but they did not have a great preparation playing in the U17 Roster. Only 4 teams made up the comp including Huonville and Clarence whom this teams regularly beat by between 6 and 10 goals. They were only streched by the Zebras every third week.
This years format, although not perfect, has got to be a vast improvement on last year. The Youth Development Program is a work in progress and no doubt won’t be the same next year. Let’s give these boys support and encouragement, let’s give them competitive practice matches to fine tune their skills. If this team happens to make it into the top 4 of the Nationals then the whole Tasmanian Football community take some credit for their achievement.
I know I am carrying on about the U15’s a bit, as I do have an interest in the squad (and no, I’m not on the staff). But I would also like to emphasise that the same goes for the U14’s. All these Boys work extremely hard and from what I have seen they are motivated, focussed, impressive young men and most of them are loyal Club Members as well. Most these guys are proud of the Clubs they come from and should they not be “discovered”, they can’t wait to get back with their old mates.
Comment by DeB8 — February 14, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
DeB8 - GREAT POST.
Even though I stand in opposition to the current FFT development programme I, in no way, am opposed to the kids or teams themsleves. I wish all the lads all the luck in the world and I sincerely do wish and hope they would come home with a national championship or even a report to say that was a damn good Tassie team that went to Nationals this year. I don’t really care what position they finish in just that they have played out of their skins and done themselves (and their mums, dads, clubs, schools) proud.
Unlike SJ, I think the competative nature of the lads playing in the U/19 teams will ensure the State 15s receive a good quality standard of game. In fact a lot of senior coaches will take the opportunity of giving some of their young senior players a bit of match time if a player is coming back from injury or even just to give them a bit of match time in general (sharpen skills, first touch, etc.). It’s not like the clubs are opposed to the State teams…
When quoting the success of other states we must ALWAYS be mindful of the player numbers these states are selecting from. The ACT & SA have VERY STRONG junior participation rates and includes summer comps. The U/15 ACT squad plays in the U/18 Premier (NOT senior men as previously alleged) League (http://www.capitalfootball.com.au/academy/overview.asp?s=suns), in fact I urge our readers to look at other states and associations to see what is being done.
Tassie selects from approx. 30-50 individual players. ACT & SA have 3-4 times that number. Even their culled ‘train-on’ squads are generally larger than our initial trial squads. So although Tassie might do well in some years, statistically we can’t compete ‘consistently’. And to expect them to do so is just unreasonable.
This is why I say FFT should be injecting themselves into the system from around U9 simply so you don’t have to unlearn or reteach.
All power to the State squads. I’m 100% in support of their efforts.
Comment by Blackjack — February 15, 2007 @ 12:41 am