February 12, 2007
Could this be the answer?
I have received this from two seperate sources (Lionheart & another who wishes to remain anonomous) & I put it up here for discussion. This is not an FFT plan (at this stage) but could easily go a long way to avoiding so many of the current hurdles associated with junior & youth development.
I welcome your input.
PREMIER YOUTH SUPER LEAGUE
This structure may best suit clubs to survive, provide pathways and move forward over the next 3-5 years;
Competition Format
We need to have a format that is structured – organised and were ever possible played at club grounds to ensure that players are part of the club – not teams just wearing a club shirt.
Therefoe;
1. A premier league Youth team competition
2. Age groups - Boys 13-14-15 (year 2 could expand to include 16/17)
3. Age group girls 15 (year 2 could expand to include 13)
4. Clubs be invited (obviously through FFT) to enter teams in this competition format as per suggested in year 1
5. MUST have teams in all age groups to compete (in year 1 it maybe 3 boys age groups 1 girl ie Boys 13-14-15, Girls 15)
6. Games would be played on Sundays (this would allow players who must participate for Schools on Saturdays to be available)
7. Games would start say 10.00am – 11.15am – 12.30pm -2.00pm.
8. Games on a home and away basis
9. Looking at numbers playing now it is believe you will get at least 6 but possibly 8 clubs who could fulfill these parameters
10. Could now – South Hobart- Kingborough- Clarence- Zebras- Eagles – Metro – Taroona (Metro- have 13/14/ girls team would need to recruit a boys 13 and Zebras have 13-14-15 boys would need to recruit girls 15)
11. Would not allow school teams to enter they can still play in Saturday comp and also club based Sunday comp (this would satisfy the club v school issue)
12. Clubs can and should be encouraged to field other teams in Saturday comps
13. No State – Regional rep teams in this league (in actual fact players should be released to play for their clubs – train with the reps one night, club on the other)
14. Clubs would be allowed to register 15 only in each age group and those 15 would not be allowed to play in Saturday club comp
15. Have a final series based on finishing positions 1 v 4 ; 2 v 3 to winners play off in Final
Advantages for clubs
1. Clubs now have a structured program leading into senior football
2. Players – parents are being brought into the club ethos thus allowing for those participants to be involved with the whole club not just 1 team ( as is current set up)
3. Teams playing at same ground same day creates a football family club atmosphere.
4. Allows clubs to generate funds through kiosk and sponsorship
5. A structured coaching set up came be brought in , individual team coaches plus head coach who sets up program oversees delivery
6. plus allows interaction between senior players and juniors .
Football Tasmania State Rep teams
Would encourage these squads to continue to train but rather than having them compete in rosters have Wednesday nights at KGV as the game time ie 14’s v Club 17’s
15’s v Club 19 ‘s on the same night.
Clubs would then be able to field proper 17 and 19 teams as these games could be used for training and match practice for players – my quick observation of the 19 comp in Hobart is a league filled with fair to good 15-16 year olds but all the better 17 plus are playing seniors – reserves – these players would be a much better challenge for the 15 boys and if clubs had to say commit for two Wednesday’s during the season I don’t believe this would be a major issue.
This is YOUR game, if the above is the answer, the clubs need to drive it. It’s not going to suddenly happen. Take it to your club personnel (development coach, committee, senior coach, etc.), from there clubs need to take it to FFT.
I think the above is a reasonable start point for a revolution in junior/youth football in Tasmania.
Blackjack
So what would be the suggested weekly schedule for a member of the U14 & U15 state teams?
Play for club on sunday, play for state in practice match midweek, train once for club and once for state?
Comment by sj — February 12, 2007 @ 4:46 pm
I think we’re getting carried away with youth development at the expense of the huge MAJORITY of players who play soccer around the state, but aren’t part of an underage state team at a set point in time. Just let the kids play, let any underage state teams compete in some comp a couple age levels above themselves for practice & leave it at that. Dont make things messy by looking for complex solutions to what should not be a big problem.
Comment by K — February 13, 2007 @ 10:53 am
Before passing judgement on such a radical proposition I beleive some one preferaby FFT should examine the proposed structure . They would then present a paper to the Board and if they so desired the member clubs .
The paper would illustrate the benefits and shortcomings of the proposition .
In any event nothing will happen at Board level until the CEO or a selected individual chosen by the Board presents an assessment by way of paper to the Directors .
So realistically speaking its up to the Board to make the running .
I am sure you are all aware that individual presentations have to be made to the CEO in the hope that they make it to Board level .
Comment by Brian — February 13, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Im sure the parents will love having their whole weekend taken up by soccer if the kids play school and club.
Comment by A Zed — February 13, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
A Zed, Rep football is virtually a full time commitment. Participation in a ’super league’ would be the equivalent to being in a rep team. It would be a club based rep team.
sj, what’s the current commitment?? 3-4 days a week?? At least they wouldn’t be required to travel 4-8 hours to get to their training venue (and return). State players would/could be released from club training (as long as they attend state training).
Comment by Blackjack — February 13, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
My point was that if they play both state and club - either both see the player one training and one game per week, which isnt acceptable for state, or they dont train for club only play. Neither situation seems good. Better to leave them in the state squad only.
Comment by sj — February 13, 2007 @ 9:56 pm
Rep football maybe a fulltime commitment and therefore those already involved wouldnt have a problem replacing this with a superleague, but now you want to increase incrementally the number of kids and parents that will be involved to this level, assuming you want enough teams and kids in this competition to make it worthwhile.
Good way to ensure there are even less parents at games I would think.
Comment by A Zed — February 14, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
All of the solutions are not much good for the large number of very talented youngsters playing on the North West, State games week night KGV are simply not possible 4.5 hours drive each way, State teams at 14,15,16 year olds should be fun and every young player should want to be in that team, at present they don’t as it is so hard with the full time committment, often in Hobart. There is no easy way to train and play regularly at State level, leave the kids to enjoy state teams for a year or two, then get more serious, don’t scare them off before they start.
Comment by hugo — February 15, 2007 @ 10:37 am
hugo - they have their fun at under 9 - under 13 in regional squads. State teams are meant to be serious. FFA only provide the challenge at U14 & U15 so there is no room to “enjoy state teams for a year or two, then get more serious”. Tasmanian distances are less than most states and they all seem to cope.
Comment by sj — February 15, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
Please SJ what are we coming to ? “Kids should have their fun at Under 9 - 13 level in regional squads or have I misunderstood your reference”? State teams are meant to be serious ? My God, no wonder we have so many kids dropping out of sport before they reach what should be a competitive level, before they finished the learning level.
Sorry I can’t remember exactly how long ago it was (somewhere around 35 years ago though), David Parkin (former AFL coach) conducted a survey when he was still a school teacher as well as a football coach.
The question he asked of 15 year old boys in the survey was:
“Would you prefer to play in your school (Australian Rules) football team as 19th or 20th man and not get a run, but, your team wins the Grand Final, or would you prefer to play the whole game and your side lose”?
I cannot give you the exact %, but it was overwhelming that the kids would rather be in the losing side and play the whole game instead of playing in a winning side and being 19th or 20th man. All they wanted to do was enjoy the game. Maybe they were just a selfish bunch of kids !
Maybe instead of the parents hogging the site on the kids behalf, and saying what they think is best for the kids, we should let the kids get on the site, without any input fom the parents, and say why they as youngsters want to play the game, or is that a scary thought ?
Comment by Silverstone — February 16, 2007 @ 12:52 am
Silverstone there are plenty of opportunities for all. Hugo wanted the state teams to be fun. I am suggsesting that those in state teams ae expected to perform. There are any number of clubs that will accept any player who wants play.
Comment by sj — February 16, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
SJ, I understand what your getting at, however we differ on our approach toward this which is fine. I am suggesting that kids that are 14, 15,16 should still be having fun playing sport. I am suggesting that when thet are not, that’s when the dropouts begin. I am simply suggesting that maybe some of the kids that are involved in the amount of training and games thay are expected to participate in to platy in state teams, should tell us what they really think of it instead of listening to the parents say what’s good and bad.
I too am the father of a boy who has been playing in Premier League for som eyears now from a pretty young age.
In the years leading up to him getting his car license I used to drive him to training and games. The last thaing I used to say to him as he got out of the car was “Have Fun”, becuase I belived at his age that’s what needed to happen to keep him in the game.
I’m not suggesting for one minute that every parent is trying to achieve their success through their kids, however from the comments I have seen on this subject I believ that there is a degree of this.
I agree that once you reach state level that because you are representing your state you are expected to step up a cog, no matter what your age.
However I’ll stand by what I say. Take the fun out of it and lets see what he retention rate is beyond late teens.
Comment by Silverstone — February 16, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
Coaches picking 16 players out of a 30+ for a NTIC dont pick their team on who is there to have the most fun at the trials. They i would think would want the players who want to represent their state the most, trying to let that show in their endevours at the trials.
Comment by Borat — February 16, 2007 @ 9:19 pm
Problem with this is that there are not enough quality young players to make this proposed league competitive enough to really develop the elite young players.
Also, if players are to be released back into their clubs, then why would the clubs be happy to have a player of state-level playing in the U15 league.
Sorry to say it, but i fail to see how this suggested leagues differs from the current setup except that it forces young players who have the ability to play at a higher level to play within themselves.
Comment by TC — February 16, 2007 @ 10:31 pm
Sorry,
I don’t recall saying anything about who is there to have the most fun so we’ll dispense with that crap. I’m sure they all want to represent their state, never suggested they didn’t.
I’ll say it again and hopefully it comes out a little bit clearer this time. When the fun is taken out of it, ask ourselves the question, why are they doing it and who are they doing it for, and, whether we like it or not, what is the retention rate ? I think in sport (be it Football, Hockey, Netball, whatever) they refer to it as burnout before reaching full potential. Everyone talks about how much the standard of soccer has dropped over the last how many years. Why ? We’re playing all these kids in state teams, shouldn’t the standard be getting better than it was say, 20 years ago. Did the have Under 14, 15, 16 have state teams 20 years ago ? I don’t know I’m asking the question. Did kids that age train 4 times a week and play twice a week 20 years ago ? I don’t know I’m asking the question. If they didn’t the why does every person (maybe somewhat exaggerated), that you talk to now tell you the standard has gone down ? Don’t know I’m only asking the question, but, I wonder whether it has anything to do with 14, 14 @ 16 year old kids not being able to “have fun”.
Turn kids of 14, 15, 16 into bloody robots and see what the result is. Sure many will continue on. I wonder about the ones that don’t and why they don’t. Anyway looks like their not supposed to have fun, so lets leave it at that. Sad !!
Comment by Silverstone — February 16, 2007 @ 11:16 pm
As a player it doesn’t matter what age you are in Tasmania. If you’re not playing for fun and enjoyment down here (NB playing for fun and playing to be competative are NOT mutually exlusive concepts) then they are a masochist or just plain weird.
Ask yourself why players leave one club to go to another in this state. Knights are good mates and have fun playing together. Metro are mates and they enjoy playing together, yet both are at opposite ends of the success perspective.
You can be serious at all levels but it shouldn’t be at the cost of enjoying yourself and having fun, especially at U14 & U15 level, afterall these are kids NOT adults.
Comment by Blackjack — February 16, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
Silverstone you maintain the rage. You are RIGHT in many of the things you say and as long as you have passed that onto your lad (and other kids you have contact with) then your influence will come to fruition. Mark my words.
We all try to do our little bit and make things just that little bit better than we found it.
Hang in there and don’t let the bastards get you down.
Comment by Blackjack — February 16, 2007 @ 11:42 pm
Silverstone - state teams in the past have been “part-time” so they also played for their club. Some also played for their school. So training 5 times a week and playing 2 or 3 matches was possible.
Comment by sj — February 17, 2007 @ 3:06 am
Tasmania will never be able to increase it’s player base while we focus 95% of all finance and development on 5% of the players. What we are building here in an elite system. That in it’s self is not a bad thing but when it’s at the cost the rest then it will prove to be a huge stumbling block.
A programme such as a super league will permit reasonable players to be exposed to good players on a regular basis and as we all know, this will aid the reasonable player to up the standard.
Taking the best players from a competition and putting them elsewhere denies the non selected players exposure and therefore makes the age competition inherently weaker. So the standard continues to go down with a by product of this being the players who only just missed are denied the opportunity of being slected the following year because they have not been exposed to a higher level of skill and ability.
None of this will come to fruition until over a period of 4-5 years all the good kids that have been part of state and regional squads will move away so they can continue to play in a competative environment leaving the others that were denied this opportinity to play in a substandard competition.
The other scenario is that the kids have also been denied the exposure to the club ethos so there is scant loyalty to any given club. These players will also be devoid of any hero worship or role modelling which is part of growing up in a club (this is also achieveable to a lesser degree in schools). As a consequence you will have a band of players who, in general, will be a team of mercenaries just like the state team of a few years ago that went from club to club lead by a certain FFT coach. And how many of those players are still playing at the top of the game today? The answer to that is one (I believe), Corey Smith of Knights.
I, like Silverstone, shake my head in depair, anger and frustration…
Comment by Lionheart — February 17, 2007 @ 10:19 am
“95% of finance and development goes to 5% of the players”. Having read the blog for a couple of months this quote has made a regular appearance. (not necessarily by Lionheart). Easy quote to make, but I suggest that in reality is most likely not correct. I can assure you that fees paid by parents of State Players last year were not subsides in any way by FFT, even though FFT received financial assistance for Youth/Junior development from the State Government.
However I’m sure there are plenty of resources that are put into the State Teams, whether it be financial or otherwise and these may well be disproportionate to the average player.
The point I’m getting to is, that virtually every young player would love represent their State, and there is a pathway for every player to do that through the U9-U12 Junior Regions and then U13 Regions and then eventually the State Level.
Let’s not carry on about the cost, because the State/Regional Players were Lucky and/or Good enough to get picked, at the expense of someone else. The reality is, it costs money and it costs resources to run a State/Regional Program and the pathway is there for every player to benefit from it.
Comment by DeB8 — February 17, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
I don’t think Lionheart is referring to the money that goes to the state squads per se (no doubt the angry bugger will correct me if I’m wrong :-D), but more to the fact that there is such a disproportional division of government finances as well as monies raised in player registrations, etc.
Comment by Blackjack — February 17, 2007 @ 9:30 pm
Thanks for your support Silverstone. SJ you say Tassie is small so travel shouldn’t be a problem, how does a NW boy get to training during the week? school finishes 3:30 4.5 hours drive puts him in Hobart at 8:00 pm does he then train for 2 hours and get home at 2:30 am? It has been suggested to me that these boys should re-locate, move to Hobart stay at the academy which should be up soon. Would you let your 13 year old live away from home (would any 13 year old want to?) and lose the chance to bring them up how you would like to? Full time State teams are too hard for NW Coasters, I wish I was wrong but I can’t see a solution, which leads to them not being able to represent their state and believe me I know some of these kids and they want that more than anything, it has been their dream for a few years. It is not however their whole life. Let them train a bit meet in Launcerston a few times train in hobart a couple of times on a weekend, a couple of times in Burnie with their Southern teammates, and ENJOY the experience. If they are going to make the big time there will be plenty of time for sacrefice and re-location later but for many of these boys State is as far as they will go.
ENJOY AND HAVE FUN, not just kids adults too
Comment by hugo — February 19, 2007 @ 10:35 am
hugo - i think you will find that training centres have been established in launceston and on the coast, with a coach responsible for each centre. As I undertstand it athletes from all state teams (male & female) will attend these sessions. Where time and circumstances permit a full squad training together each session is fantastic but these centres cater for those times when it is not possible. North west players have been part of past squads and are part of current squads - so not all see the barriers you perceive. Perhaps those on the NW could form their own futsal ’state team’? and avoid having to travel at all?
Comment by sj — February 20, 2007 @ 12:31 am
I have done some research on European Development Squads/ Academies. Over there kids this age train 4 times a week after school for a minimum of 1.5hrs, then play on the weekend. These Clubs/Academies sole purpose is to produce players that will play in the Serie A, Premier League, Bundesliga etc and the players (and lets not forget the families) that are part of these programs are making the sacrifice required because they believe that they can make it to that level.
I can’t speak for David Abela, but I am sure that one of their Aims to to produce A League players if not a Socceroo. You’re not going to produce elite players if you go at it half hearted, they have to spend as much time with a ball as possible.
The current crop of state players all have the desire to make the grade and they (and their families) are backing their own ability and are prepared to put in the time. Now I have seen plenty of kids around that are as talented as some of the guys in the squads, but have decided not to follow the path set out in the State Program. For some travel was an issue or didn’t want to spend the time required and others wanted to stay with their mates at club level. I would suggest that some of these guys are not mentally strong enough to make to the elite level even though they may have talent to burn. It’s easy to come up with excuses not to do the program, like there’ll be injuries, burnout, failure, rejection and they are valid points.
The players and parents don’t go into this program blind, they know that historically and mathematically the odds are against them. These guys are backing their own ability and FFT are providing a pathway for them. The pathway is tough and the sacrifices are very significant and people may question whether it’s all worth it. I am sure that most ex State players look back at this time as a special time of their lives, where they played their Guts out for Tasmania, made some good friends along the way and learnt a lot about themselves. So, even though most did not fulfill their ultimate ambition, if they had to do it all over again, then they would!
Comment by DeB8 — February 20, 2007 @ 10:02 am
Yes SJ the current squads have players from NW I believe the state u14 from last year now u-15 have 1 player who is not from the south. We did have a state futsal team based in the NW that travelled to Canberra and competed in the National championships, I did suggest that any interested players from Hobart were welcome to travel to Burnie to try out, I am not sure why, but not a single southerner turned up, perhaps it was the distance to travel to the try outs that put them off. I am only going on what I am told by members of these squads but the training centres have not been being used to date. Hopefully they will in future years. I am not against commitment, some of my boys train 4 or 5 times a week already (with clubs, schools and rep sides), they are keen for as much as possible, I am simply trying to make the pathways into State teams as easy for NW players as they are for North and South players. At the moment a lot of boys from NW don’t try out or pull out of squads because of the travel problem
Comment by Hugo — February 20, 2007 @ 10:44 am
how many players who have played in state squads in the last 5 to 10 years have actually made it anywhere in the game? i dare to say under 5 if that have made it out of the state, but still even worse how many kids dont play the game anymore after state soccer
Comment by trev — February 20, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
When I first started to read DEB8’s recent post I thought, “Great someone is doing some background reading”. Stupid assumption on my part. From this point it was all down hill.
DeB8…you’re the parent of a player who’s either just made a state squad or is from last year’s U/14 state squad, correct?? Yeah, know the animal…!!! Anyone else detect a ’scary parent syndrome’ here?
DEB8 you have correctly identified a number of possibilities (missed inability to afford the cost) as to why a player might ‘choose’ not to be involved (travel, injury, wants to play with mates, dedicated to club, etc.) and you then put all these legitmate reasons down to; “Not mentally strong enough to make the elite level”. Stupid statements like this tick me off. It demostrates more about the author than anything else…
Comment by Lionheart — February 20, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
Come on Hugo never at anytime did FFT advertise that trials for any state futsal team were being held in Burnie. We all know that the team was accepted en masse because FFT took on the role of sending “state teams” at the last minute.
The state outdoor squads were only selected earlier this month - the coaches to look after the centres have been arranged - Lton starts this week and I understand the N-W (Devonport?) starts this week as well.
Comment by sj — February 20, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
We are all doing the best we can for our kids or other kids we coach, but I am sorry deb8 you and I will have to agree to dissagree on some minor details. I am pleased you are fully behind your child, but believe me so am I. I simply do it in a more relaxed and enjoyable less stressful manner. I think Lionheart you are agreeing that we make it more accessable to all, not just the ‘elitists’ (all be it elite in their own minds at times).
Comment by hugo — February 20, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
DEB8. I know a few kids who had “talent to burn”, but, didn’t make it as far as state level, why, because their parents unfortunately didn’t haven’t “money to burn”.
Some of these kids would have loved to have ben a part of the program.
Comment by Silverstone — February 20, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
Now guys (I’m a assuming you’re Guys) I would’nt jump to conclusions about my backround, but what I have done is be involved with the youth for a long time. I grant that my comment about mental strength may have been a bit harsh, however the point I could have expressed better is that after State level, if a player wants to progress to a higher level than Tasmanian Football, it actually gets much harder. So those guys that can’t deal with the current demands are less likely to be able to deal with the demands of the next level.
As for the costs involved, it’s an unfortunate drawback of user pays. I guess it could be easily fixed if every player had $5 added to their Registration. Now that would open a can of worms in the Clubs Committee Rooms. The reality is that if you want a free football development program, go and play Aussie Rules. In every other sport in Tas the User Pays. The top Football Academies on the Mainland charge their players $2000+ for the privelege and even the new Clarence United Youth Academy has a cost involved. Maybe one day there will be enough money in the sport, so Cost will not dictate who’s able to play for Tasmania.
Ps: I do sympathise with the NW, they do it tougher than most.
Comment by DeB8 — February 20, 2007 @ 10:03 pm
I think we are all on the same side here. It seems the burning issue is at what age we bagin to make things ‘more serious’
Comment by Hugo — February 21, 2007 @ 8:41 am
I didn’t advocate a free football development program. I merely make the point that there are some in our footballing community who, due to financial constraints faced by their family will never play representative football in their youth. Fact !
I also understand that it’s a Catch 22. While each participant has to come up with money to represent the state, you will never have the 15, 20 or whatever number is in the squad, best players representing the state.
Wer’e not going to support FT subsidising the elite or whatever name we care to annoint the kids with, (and, don’t get me wrong, good luck to them if hey are selected after everything they have to go through to make it), so how do we ensure that everone gets an equal chance based on $$$$$$ and the state is represented by the best players ?
Comment by silverstone — February 21, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
“how do we ensure that everone gets an equal chance based on $$$$$$ and the state is represented by the best players ?”
Convince FFA that they should fund it. But dont hold your breath!
Comment by sj — February 23, 2007 @ 11:56 am
I know a boy that played in a state team for the first year but couldnt afford to play in the second year becuase his family had to fork out for his 3 older brothers i think it was, that had all made state teams before the boy had.
If FFA ever funded the NTIC i think it would only better themsleves, surely there are possible candidates for AIS, joeys or development squads that dont commit because of the $$$. When looking at it as well our underage NATIONAL squads arent setting the world on fire with their performances lately either… More could be done to push our development into a powerhouse.
Comment by Borat — February 23, 2007 @ 11:38 pm