April 26, 2007
The woes of the women’s game
The Southern Tasmania Womens’ Premier League is in complete disarray.
The last two weeks has seen Nelson smash their opponents by a score more appropriate to a rugby scoreline (13-0). Even New Town Eagles is not just destroying most opposition but actually humiliating them. Eventually this must become boring for both teams. Will this not encourage lazy behaviour and the developing of bad habits?
This cannot be healthy for the womens’ game. One can only imagine most young lasses playing in squads like Clarence, Tilford Zebras, Glenorchy Knights and to a lesser extent, South Hobart and University must be very disillusioned at the prospect of fronting up to a match they know (barring miracles or natural disaster) they are going to get thumped. It’s any wonder most clubs don’t want to enter teams in the Premier League.
Recruiting and maintaining enthusiasm and motivation must be an absolute nightmare for club coaches and clubs in general.
So what is to be done? Who needs to act to create a level playing field or at least an environment that will allow a reasonable level of competition.
I’m not going to answer this but rather throw it open to the public.
Should Nelson be forced to turn away new recruits (players not developed by Nelson)? Should New Town Eagles receive a penalty to even things up?
NB. This topic WILL NOT descend into a session that bags the women’s game or women playing sport in general. They have as much right to play ALL sports as any male competitor. Any posts even suggesting the women’s game being a lesser standard or generally derogatory toward their game will not see the light of day on this blog.
This is a really tricky one Blackjack. Kingborough were once a very good and championship challenging team in the womens Premier league. Things change as with everything and alas we now have more women playig the game for the first time and not growing up with the game and playing at high levels. That is not to say that it is a bad thing for our club. The difference is that the womens league has 2 aboslutely gun teams and a few others trying really hard. Don’t we all want to try and replicate the Nelson success? As harsh as it is we should not punish a team/s for being successful, sooner or later things do a full circle. They always do, and sooner or later teams don’t achieve. Brisbane and North Melbourne in the AFL, Real Madrid in Spain. etc etc. Some losses have to be endured before success is planned and achieved.
Comment by charlie white — April 26, 2007 @ 11:20 am
The current situation is probably a fair reflection on the tremendous effort Nelson put into developing their teams in the womens competitions. They should not be punished for this. They have been at the top in womens soccer for the best part of 20 years (in fact, if it werent for Ossie Fitzgerald, who knows where the womens league would be now - probably not as thriving as it it).
Zebra’s have managed to get enough numbers for their womens team by poaching from DOSA and other clubs. It’s up to the other clubs to put more effort into developing the players they have to give Nelson some decent competition.
Comment by IceMan — April 26, 2007 @ 11:36 am
Gee, I wonder why this post was deleted Boots. Read the note at the bottom of my original post & just for your own information…I detest generalisations.
There will be no other warnings.
Blackjack
Comment by Boots — April 26, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
The standard of play of teams such as nelson and eagles has dropped in recent seasons which is no surprise given they don’t have to play that well to win games. However Nelson themselves are responsible for a large part of this. They don’t put that much effort into developing young players, most of their effort goes into poaching good players from other clubs so that they continue to dominate. Whilst they will complain about the lack of competition at the same time they can’t handle the threat of losing. There are some good individual players in the div 1 competition playing in not so good teams but its so hard to talk them into playing premier league because they say they find teams such as nelson intimidating. Its very frustrating and something needs to be done.
Comment by Frustrated Womens Player — April 26, 2007 @ 3:45 pm
I’ll copy my post from another thread after seeing this topic a couple of days before it mysteriously disappearing…
“Blackjack I don’t know if I’m having illusions, but I swear there was a topic about the Women’s Premier League earlier, but my thoughts on that is… I wonder how the Nelson team would go in the Men’s division 4 or something. Hardly a quality league for them to move into, but surely a challenge wouldn’t hurt them, and the other women’s teams would be better for it. The fact teams are being forced to play in there by FFT is a joke, and all it’d achieve is losing the best women’s players by those clubs due to disinterest in being beaten by 10 goals every month.
Comment by Ril — April 24, 2007 @ 8:40 pm”
Further to that I wouldn’t agree with Iceman that the league is “thriving” at the moment. I do agree though with the Frustrated Womens Player that Nelson don’t seem to put much effort in anymore. Any of those as unfortunate as I to see the Women’s Summer Cup Final will agree there.
Comment by Ril — April 26, 2007 @ 5:28 pm
Ril,
I fear you misinterpret me. I said “not as thriving as it is now”. I’m not saying the current 3 divisions are brilliant OR woeful. I’ve used a phrase to describe the current situation as opposed to what it MAY be like if certain people had not put in a lot of hard work in the past.
Please read the whole statement in context before commenting. Thanks.
Comment by IceMan — April 26, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
I sort of like Ril’s idea, mind you, Nelson will fight this, of course, and they’ve got a right to. What can you do? Maybe Nelson should be barred from recruiting? Who knows?
Comment by redandblack — April 26, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
Sounds like Frustrated Womens Player has been spanked by Nelson and doesn’t like them much?
Comment by chalky — April 26, 2007 @ 9:19 pm
Thought i would add my two cents worth to the blog topic! I have a daughter who is involved in the women’s premier league not at Nelson but who would like nothing better than to beat Nelson . I have just watched over the last 5 years on a regular basis.
I don’t have the answers - takes a much smarter person than me but can point to a couple of trends .
1. Good Coaches
Prior to the last two maybe three years the women’s Premier league was competitive - Eagles under Jonesy and Knights under rod Tattum - a young Kingborough side i think with grimesy at the helm plus both Metro and University apologies to not naming their coaches think it was Horace and ( Karin )who also provided good opposition - and of course Nelson who under the Ossie Fitzgerald ( abramovich) clan who had recruited Krambo to assist in the coaching area whist he moved upstairs to the football directors role ..lol , in fact i think 3 years ago the league was still up for grabs between three teams with a round to go.
How can it have fallen off the rails so quickly ?? did the players or the coaches get tired ? or did they move on ? What has FFT done differently over the last three years to the women’s game that was soaring to new heights and is now flapping to low lights - ? I remember our football scribe describing in his own unflappable standards of a great women’s summer cup final Nelson and Eagles in great details - as most above have stated a bygone memory.
2. Club Administration. Why do the so called better young players go to Nelson - ? they have been a powerhouse in the female game from the old Calies days which is were i am told this club originated from , they run as psuedo teams within the club using the Nelson name, under the Fitzgerald ( abramovich) family operation- it is interesting that during the same period of the women’s domination the mens team have struggled .
My informant advised that they run completly seperate from the rest of the club - including having seperate bank accounts and fund raising so in affect only have to worry about two teams.
Must assist - i should also note that many in the club are very close and have played together for up to ten years and their success can also be attributed to the way the older players and the female matriach ( Janine Fitz ) brings them into the family fold - must be easy to only have to run two teams compared to 10-40 that some of the bigger clubs are now running
3. Recruitment
The Fitzgerald ( abramovich) management style with Krambo as his Jose -ie identify and recruit best players is how the modern Chelski have become such a powerhose in the EPL ( they obviously studied the Fitzgerald plan ). Do we tell Chelski to find a new league - no we tell the rest to lift their game !!
In years gone past the Fitzgerald ( abramovich) group have also been strongly involved with State teams ( good to see Krambo is continuing this involvement ) however to be fair believe Jonesy and Itchins when they were in charge of Junior girls state teams were able to recruit all to Eagles - so their is a definate pattern.
I will finish with the issue re playing the Nelson team in 4th div - doubt if either the div 4 teams or the Nelson women would be at all interested - what does it achieve apart from allienating a successful women’s program - take the best club - players out of the league so the rest can be happy !!! think not
Comment by Abramovich — April 27, 2007 @ 9:11 am
Great post Abramovich. Well laid out and structured discussion. Thank you for your input.
In summing up;
a. clubs need to extract a digit and put some time, effort and ‘hard earned’ into their teams
b. Appoint the best quaility coaching & support staff available but preferably someone who is committed to women’s football
c. Institute a state development programme that will prevent it’s coaches from poaching players. Not sure how they’re going to do this because it has been a dismal failure in the boys programme despite regulations to prevent this.
Does this sum it up??
Comment by Blackjack — April 27, 2007 @ 10:12 am
Yeah happy with summary - would add that FFT has a role to play with the inclusion of Institute program - especially in area of were players go to play a) whilst in program and b)when they leave program if continuing to play in Tas- they cannot go to one or two teams !!!
Comment by Abramovich — April 27, 2007 @ 10:43 am
Abramovich, would you suggest an institute team playing in the WSPL would be a good idea or is the talent among the clubs thin enough already?
I’m not sure you could prevent a player, at the completion of the TIS programme, going to either Nelson or Eagles but there could certainly be some merit in bringing in ‘anti-syphoning’ laws. Setting up of geographical boundaries might also aid in achieving a balance similar to the underage Hobart team that went to Japan a few years ago.
No doubt you will see the rise of some other clubs in the next few years but nothing will replace the club that treats it’s players well and Nelson certainly do this better than most.
Comment by Blackjack — April 27, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
Blackjack,
all we want FFT to do is the smart thing and bring in the draft.
Comment by Greg Saunders — April 27, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
I coach the Collegiate Firsts in the SATIS roster, not affiliated with FFT (I don’t think).
A couple of my girls play for the South Hobart womens team I recall them mentioning that the state U15 girls team was in a comp against them, not sure whether that was last year, this year, summer cup or something else, but that sounds similar to a TIS setup.
Speaking of SATIS there are a number of talented girls kicking about in there, not sure if they are all at clubs already but that’s a pool I’d be dipping into if I was a club coach looking to recruit.
For both men and women if clubs invest the time to develop their youth they will eventually reap the benefits. No club here can have a galactico policy and money doesn’t talk anymore, because there is none. The ground we all stand on is fairly even, from there it is down to what each club does.
Comment by Tommy — April 27, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
Tommy,
(blackjack - this post may diverge from the initial heading and I apologise)
SATIS - not affiliated with the FFT for sure! I haven’t ever been associated directly with womens or girls football but I have witnessed many a young male player with huge potential fail to schieve that potential for one reason only. They MUST play for their schools (and be coached by those who often don’t have any interest, let alone experience) and not play for clubs.
The Youth and Junior rosters (if you haven’t figured that out) is based on the private schools term dates. Goes back about 15 years to when they combined - the private schools wanted more games, SoccerTas wanted the private schools. A deal was done and still exists today.
If Collegiate had a promising young girl who wanted to play for a club (and maybe get better facilities, coaching etc.) I think that they would allow that girl to play against Collegiate. Other private schools would definately not.
I knew that I’d digress - it’s not just football. Cricket has exactly the same problem and I can assure you that there are guys who could well have played for Tassie even who never will - because they had to play for their school rather than in the 1st. team for a club. I presume that other sports are in a similar situation.
SATIS - a disaster. The old boys/girls club that affects young boys/girls. If any student wished to play for a club rather than their school (for whatever reason) then why not let them?
Comment by tasblue — April 27, 2007 @ 6:54 pm
Greg, are you talking about like an afl draft type structure? I’d be a little worried about that one.
Comment by 1878 — April 27, 2007 @ 9:11 pm
Nelson are the yardstick just like the Knights in the mens comp ( who’s picking them off this years ? everone so far) NTE want to beat Nelson and will so the rest of you stop making excuses and get on with it.
While were on about rules
Boundaries great - 2 clubs on the eastern shore, approx 11 on the western shore - how will this work, what if I move? O GOD!
more rules ?
Another point - most people are drawn into sport by friends ect - or by location (say New Norfolk or Kingbrough) how will a draft work for these people ?
FFT cant manage the current rules and regs how will they manage with more - higher subs and another vacant position ?
While were at it lets bring in the mother daughter rule.
Just Play
Comment by clutch — April 27, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
Oh, it so good to see the, “I’m all right Jack, stuff you” attitude is still alive and kicking. It’s all very well for clutch to say, Just Play, but if you want to consider the game as a whole rather than just the success of Nelson other factors must be considered. It must be nice and warm inside the bubble complete with the arrogant attitude. Anything constructive to add to the discussion clutch?
Comment by Roundball Specialist — April 28, 2007 @ 12:02 am
Completely agree, Roundball Specialist. This NTE supporter needs to wake up and realise that there’s other clubs, other players, than just his/her own.
What are you saying about boundaries and clubs on eastern/western shore?
Comment by redandblack — April 28, 2007 @ 9:26 am
So Roundball Specialist (self given title I presume?)
Sorry to upset your morning but I just wanted to point out the possible problems of going to a AFL style setup with regard to regions and drafts in my own way. If I thought NTE was cruzin in the world of football I wouldnt have commented at all.
Look at the first post by charlie white, sums it up as the way thing go - ups and downs. Second post, Zebras got a team - do they expect to be champs strait away or give up after one year ? I doubt it.
If you want a level playing field for womens soccer then shouldnt we do it for the mens comp as well? we must be fair to both genders and to the mens strugglers, Metro NTE and Taroona(sorry Tarrona just looking at current ladder positions).
One last comment - I know I shouldn’t inflame thing but I will - I have tried to play football for 29 years. Maybe I should have given up after the first year when we won only 1 game and lost by double digits for most of the season ? Hell no !!!!
Comment by clutch — April 28, 2007 @ 10:06 am
1878
sorry mate it was a joke. I told a lie on the site last week. Not everything I say on here is completely serious.
Comment by greg saunders — April 28, 2007 @ 11:25 am
wether people like it or not, most players (male or female) are going to want to play in a team that wins more often than losing. you can’t blame a player moving to a team thats going to give them more of the feel good factor. in my opinion the biggest problem is the level of coaching the female players get and also the age they start to play at.
before they reach adolesence, theres no reason why other than level of talent why there shouldn’t be mixed teams. i expect there will be a load of people jumping up and down at my last sentence, but from my experience in Glasgow, girls who grew up playing football from an early age were able to hold their own (pardon the pun) against pre-teen boys. my sons team had a girl who growing up in a socially deprived area, only had football to fill her time (no computers, video games etc), I’d say that she could practically outplay everyone on his team, and could tackle as well as a grown man. of course she’s more than likely an exception to women in general, but it goes to show that given the same opportunities as young boys, there’s no reason why until they start to develop physically in their teens, there’s no real reason why there should be any difference in the final product.
Comment by richard mac — April 28, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
**phew… Greg, I though you were suggesting that we have a draft pick. That or an auction at the start of every season… I think this could really take off.
I agree with richard here… Girls are quite capable of being competitive, physically and skillfully up until the age of about 11-12. I think many junior teams around this age group have uni sex teams. It is just trying to get the numbers for a decent u/13-u/19 leagues where clubs can build up and hopefully retain players for Premier League comps.
I assisted with a year 11 and 12 girls team a few years back. I was just “running the line” and helping out here and there. I was hardly running the line because the defense sat just outside their 18 yard box. As a result it did tend to be a bit boring. The coaches weren’t yelling and screaming “get wide”, “drop” etc the coaches almost saw it as a lost cause which it isnt. These girls weren’t stupid and the coach should’ve worked on teaching them the basics. I believe that an 18 yo girl would be more able to comprehend tactics and strategy than an 18yo guy. They were quick, but they were just lacking some skills.
Comment by 1878 — April 29, 2007 @ 11:14 pm
Tasblue: I think SATIS operates differently now, they don’t play against any clubs or public schools and the competition is played on Tuesday nights. I think a few girls in the comp already play for clubs, I’m guessing that the situation you describe where schools might prevent girls playing for clubs shouldn’t arise. It may be different for boys though due to higher numbers involved, if that is the case I can understand your case above and the schools need to have a look at themselves.
Apologies to all I realise this isn’t really about the state of the women’s game.
Comment by Tommy — April 30, 2007 @ 10:37 am
Abramovich was right in his description of a few years ago. I coached the Kingborough women in 2004 and 2005 before Vince took over (again!) last year.
In 2004, the premiership came down to the second-last game between us and Nelson (they won 2-0). As of the week before that, Glenorchy were still in it. Eagles were close behind, and Uni, Olympic, Clarence and Metro were all providing strong competion.
It was late 2005 that things started to go wrong. Clarence asked to drop to Div 1 and were replaced by South Hobart, while Olympic folded and were replaced by Zebras. Now the season ticked along reasonably, with Eagles being the dominant force as their young players found consistency.
Then two weeks out from the much anticipated (by us at least!) finals series, Soccer Tas decided to can the finals and replace them with a third round. One of the great ironies was that this was mostly to provide more games, but Zebras, not in the finals, immediately pulled out, leaving a bye in the third round.
Then in 2006, Knights and Metro pulled out of Premier as well, leaving only five teams. And guess where all the players went?
Now down at Kingborough, this unfortunately coincided with some rebuilding as some temporary retirements were replaced by newcomers to the game, and playing Nelson and Eagles 2 games out of 4 wasn’t the best introduction to the game for them, so this year we’re playing in Div 1 as well, although Knights, Zebras and Clarence are back in the top flight.
Now I’ll start this next bit by saying that Ossie and I go way, way back and are good friends, and I admire what he’s done for women’s soccer.
BUT - someone over there obviously promises people the world, without thinking about the consequences for the competition. It’s been the case for as long as I can remember - Rapid (I think it was), then Calies, then Nelson. The Fitzgerald team has always been dominant, although they have occasionally dropped to second.
If it was just that they were well-coached, that would be fine - but they often have elite players going over to them.
I like to think we have a great setup, but convincing people that the Southern Outlet isn’t Bass Strait seems to be difficult!
In the end, though, I think the only solution is for clubs like us and South to further establish our strong juniors and community links so that we will always be here, and will keep our players - as David Abela has said ‘players make choices’, so we need to make sure they choose us.
Comment by John — April 30, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
I have been involved in soccer only a short 8 seasons all with Nelson. Just to set a few things straight.
Club Administration
The women’s and men’s clubs are not run separately. This has not been the case for a number of years. We have a holistic plan that incorporates all players. Our women’s program has equal weight to our men’s and youth programs. It’s unfortunate that statements are made on this blog that are inaccurate. Our club is in fact the same size as Hobart Olympic and Glenorchy Knights but without the community support that they enjoy.
Player Poaching
The club’s policy is that poaching from other clubs will not be tolerated – however, I am not naïve enough to believe that this does not happen. ALL clubs indulge in this practice to some degree and we ourselves have been victim of it. Our coaches have been told that they may not approach players from other clubs but if a player approaches our club then they are of course welcomed regardless of their abilities.
Youth Development
To say that we do not put any time into developing players is also not true. We work closely with the ERJSA and are involved with their regional program. We also work with Mackillop College and run youth teams as Nelson/MacKillop teams. Some of these players come and play for us and some go on to play for other clubs. One of our senior players also coaches the Southern U16 girls’ team. Youth development is not just running youth teams under your own banner.
What next?
I agree with Charlie – everything has a cycle. In 2005 NTE won the premiership in a year when any of the eight teams were a chance to win each week. There were no easy games. Unfortunately we are currently in an apparent down cycle but anyone who has watched the young Zebras team play will feel that things are on the rise!!
The quality of division 1 when I first started playing left a lot to be desired. This is now a vibrant and competitive league. A third league has been introduced. The quality of premier league is also much improved. There are statewide competitons and North v South games. In general women’s football is expanding and improving.
I believe that a good women’s program can only be achieved if the club administrations make it a priority. Good coaching is vital if the women’s game is to flourish. The answer is for all with an interest in seeing the women’s competition expand is to get out and keep supporting the youth programs around the state. After all each team can only have 11 players on the field at one time – the more talented players the better the competition.
Comment by Michelle Castle — May 4, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Thanks Michelle for your observation on the up and coming Zebars young (and not so young *cough cough*)team. Just wanted to point out even though the Zebras are yet to win a game they have only been beaten by Nelson and Eagles by 3 goals. They definatley don’t feel like they have been destroyed or humiliated by these teams.
Comment by Lauren — May 4, 2007 @ 3:39 pm
I will start by going through a list of the Nelson Premier League Women’s Team.
Caitlin: came to Nelson as a Junior
Amelia: came to Nelson as a Junior
Bee: came to Nelson as a Junior
Lara: came to nelson as a Junior
Ellie: transferred to Nelson after her own team folding and was unable to play premier league with Clarence.
Mandy: came to Nelson as a junior
Emily: came to Nelson as a Junior
Karen: came to Nelson as a Junior
Vanessa: came to Nelson as a Junior from Kingborough who used as a bench warmer.
Sarah: transferred to Nelson upon her own request.
Krystal: moved from NSW and wanted to play with her friends at Nelson
Amy: transferred when her own team folded
Lauren: came to Nelson as a Junior
Shelley: came to Nelson as a Junior
Kelly: came to Nelson as a Junior and returned last season
As you can see FRUSTRATED WOMEN’S PLAYER Nelson do now and have in the past put a great deal of effort into developing their juniors, infact 12 out of their current 16 registered players having actually progressed from junoirs through the ranks. Additionally six of their more senior players have played a combined total of approximately 1500 games for this team. It appears then that you haved inaccurately but loudly voiced your opinion without first checking the facts when you accused Nelson of spending more time and effort in poaching players than developing their juniors.
I would also like to highlight the fact that Nelson are approached each year by a number of players during the off season with a request of playing in the Nelson team. Although it is not Nelson’s policy to actually turn players away they have suggested that these players stay with their current club for the benefit of Womens Soccer as a whole. On the other hand a considerable number of Nelson’s players were approached by written invitation to train and play with another southern women’s team, however unlike some others using this blog I will not single out or point the finger at any person or team by naming this club.
Also thank you Ambramovich for recognising the closeness of the Nelson club and the way in which you refer to all players being “invited into the family fold”. Be assured this is the case and believed to be largely responsible for the teams success.
Finally OH GOD, the thought of the repercussions if three Nelson’s previous National players return to the fold, in the form of Naomi Denne, Treena Youngblut and Sarah Fitzgerald.
Comment by Contented Woman — May 6, 2007 @ 10:14 pm
I have been playing soccer for 26 years and am still playing top league soccer in Victoria, I started my womens career at Calies at the age of 11 which then went to East United and then onto Nelson. I have also represented Tasmania, NSW, Victoria and Australia and that is all because of the support I was given as a junior in these clubs. I have never known Nelson(Calies, East United) to poach players and any players that they have come to the club have either joined as a junior or approached Nelson not the other way around. I think if other clubs put as much effort into their players on and off the park as Nelson does then they wouldn’t have the problems they do….for example Vanessa Johnson who is arguably the best female player in Tasmania use to be a bench warmer for Kingborough who would not play her and give her a chance so she approached Nelson to play and she has developed into a fantastic player….I believe if she had been given the chance whilst at Kingborough she would have played for Australia and probably still be playing for Kingborough……Kingboroughs loss!!!
As for comments above that the Fitzgeralds have always been winning or come second…I remember running on the park as a youngster against Raiders and Rapid and walking off 90 minutes later having been beat 10 nil on numerous occasions but we all stuck at it and built a team and a family enviornment and now its Nelson turn to dominate.
Other teams should see Nelson as a challenge not a threat and want to build teams to beat them and if they go into it with the right frame of mind it will happen.
It has taken Nelson along to time to build the team and environment they have and they deserve all the sucess they are having, other clubs should worry more about there teams and getting them up to standard instead of bagging out Nelson. Maybe they should try to recruit people like Ossie and Jeanette Fitzgerald, Karen Clark and Vanessa Johnson…not only because of how good they are but because of there dedication to the Nelson team on and off the park.
To all you people whinging…Jealousy is a curse !!!
Comment by Soccer Old Girl — May 7, 2007 @ 11:37 am
I agree with soccer old girl as I also am an orginal calies girl. I was there when we were getting our butts knick. Ozzie and Jeanette have played a major ans important role in my life since I was a junior soccer player at the age of 9. Ozzie has been a mentur and a life long friend who encourge me on and off the field.
Give Nelson a break maybe one day your team could be as good as Nelson.
Comment by Dedicated player — May 8, 2007 @ 9:57 am
The original idea of this post was to discuss how to level the playing field as there were only two teams that are able to form any type of competition (a derivative of compete) but for some reason it has developed into a ‘bun fight’ and some of the Nelson people taking things way too personally. This discussion topic isn’t to bag out Nelson, it’s to find way of improving women’s football. We have ascertained that Nelson are happy with their lot but handing out 13-0 thrashings to other clubs, will this have a negative effect on the recruiting of players? All the wonderful work done by Ossie Fitzgerald and the Nelson club is going to amount to nought if you end up with a club that doesn’t have any opposition. This is happening now as most of the Div.1 clubs just flatly refuse to compete in the Premier League. This can’t be good for the women’s game.
Comment by Blackjack — May 8, 2007 @ 11:04 am
Well maybe they should concentrate on improving their teams as there is alot of talent in Tasmania, not only at Nelson, but they are clearly not making the most of it
Comment by Soccer Old Girl — May 8, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Contented Woman - Not sure about any others but Caitlin came from another club when she had already represented the state. Your post implies that Nelson develop female youth players - but as the club doesnt field any female youth teams how is this possible. I would suggest that of the recent recruits none came as “juniors” and those that came as 14/15 year olds were already good players.
Not taking anything at all away from Nelson as they have a fantastic togetherness that should be encouraged.
Comment by sj — May 8, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
As I understand it there are two Womens premier League games at KGV tomorrow night.
6pm Zebras v South Hobart
8pm Nelson v New Town eagles
Both should be very entertaining games. Any scoreline predictions?
Comment by sj — May 8, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
I am amazed that this has been accepted for debate. Surely a better way of tackling this issue is to talk about soccer in general (which some have done). Singling out one club and then saying they shouldn’t take it personally is ridiculous. I have known Ossie, Jeanette and most of the senior players for over 18 years and I remember the struggles when we first started. It’s funny how when we were getting beaten 8 or 12 nil (for quite a few years) we didn’t once state that something should be done to even things up, and not once did someone come in for us to debate how we could make the competition a little fairer. We took this as an opportunity to work harder as we were very young and to one day perhaps play good football. That’s what it’s always been about, playing good football!
How about starting at the junior level and providing the support for players to come through. Most won’t make it due to puberty and other interests, but the one’s that do will make great players.
How do we address these problems?? This is the real question which should be debated!! Not that some club has been poaching and how do we fix the problem of their success. I remember the day when an overseas player came to our training session and boy was she great, and I remember Ossie telling her to join another club if possible and when I confronted him he said he already had some great players and another team would benefit. I also remember when I was approached by coaches and players of other teams offering incentives to leave Nelson and join them.
Ossie is one of the most passionate, caring and inspiring men I know and if I ever came back to play (I retired 6 years ago to start a family) it would be for Ossie and not Nelson. Maybe other clubs should look at how happy and content people are and the fairness given to all by Ossie. Training was never a chore but full of laughter and enthusiasm. I don’t care what anyone says but Ossie and Jeannette have always been the backbone to the clubs success!
These issues of a team being ‘too good’ are always going to run in cycles. Have a look at any sport, when teams recruit new players it take 1-3 years for any kind of progress to be made, womens soccer in tassie is no different. Before you make an example of Nelson please consider that these girls and coaching staff have worked bloody hard to get where they are and why should they have to play elsewhere or be split up (that was a debate 10 years ago when Nelson were doing well then too). Other clubs need to take a more maternal approach to their players, take them under your wing and guide them, it’s not always about dollars, politics and who does this and that. Nelson isn’t a soccer club, never has been, it’s always been a family unit.
You can pretty much agree that any player for Nelson (past or present) is going to be passionate about Ossie, Jeannette and the club. If you place this kind of subject up for discussion and name people like Ossie then be prepared for people to be quite frustrated as this man should be celebrated for all the wonderful things he has accomplished in soccer, not only for women and juniors but also the representative teams. If it weren’t for people like Ossie there probably wouldn’t even be a women’s league.
Comment by gunka — May 8, 2007 @ 8:59 pm
Why shouldn’t this be discussed/debated? It’s not about Nelson, it’s about women’s football in Southern Tasmania. I’m amazed how sensitive some of the Nelson faithful are on this matter. A lot of them have taken this as a personal attack on Ossie/Jeanette and/or Nelson, and nothing could be further from the truth.
The mistake many of the Nelson faithful make is because Nelson is frequently mention they are taking a paranoid view when in fact it is PURELY because of Nelson being the yardstick by which others are measured. Others have to know how Nelson become so successful so they can plan and build. No need to take things so personally.
And for the young lady who was so negative saying that other clubs should get off the backsides and do something…well missy, a lot of clubs are doing just that, but it doesn’t happen over night. It is a slow process to develop a female player from juniors through to a senior women’s player. In fact if you look at the current State teams there are a few clubs who have representatives included. A good sign for the future if the clubs can hang on to them. It would also help if you could keep the likes of the State U/17 coach from making announcements on the radio saying that players should come to play at Nelson.
Look, when you’re the top of the pile you have to expect some jealousy as well as close and fine examination of your structure. Nelson people need to get used to this. It’s happened with South Hobart, Glenorchy Knights, Olympic and any other successful club you like to mention. It goes with the territory of being the state’s top female team.
Comment by Blackjack — May 8, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Zebras v South Hobart - The pacey Zebras should prove to be too much for South Hobart
Nelson v New Town Eagles - Nelson has some injury worries. If Eagles bring there A-game they will be hard to beat. Too close to call. Should be an exciting match!!
Comment by Michelle — May 9, 2007 @ 9:45 am
Well said BJ. If you want to see that start of the process you are talking about…have a look at Clarence’s Premier League Women’s team at the moment. Full of young, passionate players that try and try. But the club, as it has with the men, is buiding a base here that won’t bear fruit for a couple of years….but as a coaching colleague of mine is prone to say “Look out…the kids are coming”.
Funny isn’t it how both this blog and the one about the changes to the men’s structure both laud the benefits of the junior development structure. ARE YOU LISTENING FFT!!!…I doubt it
Comment by A whisper — May 9, 2007 @ 9:58 am
I think at the moment the standard can’t be levelled, I don’t think Nelson should be split up to do that as alot of girls play soccer for fun and want to play with their friends and by splitting them up you will lose valuable players to the game. I think all that can be done is to wait and give the other teams time to catch up to Nelson. In 2 - 3 years Tasmania will have a very competitive Premier League if teams can keep their players.
Stick at the game youngsters and stay dedicated to your team.
Comment by Soccer Old Girl — May 9, 2007 @ 11:32 am
I don’t think anyone was attacking Ossie.
My quote “Now I’ll start this next bit by saying that Ossie and I go way, way back and are good friends, and I admire what he’s done for women’s soccer.”
And Abramohvic named him under “Good Coaches”.
I used to play for Nelson, and Ossie coached my sister in the State team back in the 80s. He will never be less than a good friend, and you won’t catch me criticising him.
I’m heartened by Michelle’s comment that coaches are banned from approaching other players, but as Blackjack pointed out, not all coaches and administrators are as community minded as Ossie and Michelle.
A problem in both men’s and women’s seems to be state junior teams playing as a squad, and then staying together at a club, usually with the coach rather than their home club. FFT doesn’t help here with their setup - one of our most promising juniors made the state team, and so we lose her! Will she come back at the end of the year? I guess that depends whether the pull of the club is stronger than the pull of friends (and/or coach).
Comment by John — May 9, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
I have over the last hour read with interest bloggers comments , many are from the heart - well meaning protective club and player blogs - but to be fair none have really come up with any real solutions , in fact most have been either pro or against Nelson and the way the club has operated.
What is the way forward for women’s Football ?
A number of promising changes ( recognising that they have been club / junior association / school driven - ie Girls Under 14 - 16 leagues junior structures having girls only comps schools football progressing from a minority sport for girls to a mainline choice of sport , especially in private schools , undertaken in the last five years have increased the participation rates.
FFT ( yeah A.Whisper realise you have no faith in them ) representative female programs other than State Teams and appointment of an institute coach ( well advertised lol.) will cater for the top end of the sport only again the non elite player will be left to her own devices - it does appear to me that 90% of funds available are spent on 5% of the playing population not just in the boys but even more so in the girls game…
FFT ; Clubs need assistance to grow the female game , you are the governing body get out and see what is happening - sitting in ivory towers or playing two games at KGV and running state teams at 3,000 a player is not the answer..
Comment by Abramovich — May 9, 2007 @ 4:31 pm
Abramovich, it depends on who you talk to to ascertain what the solution s are to the wome’s game. If you talk to the ones that are currently doing ok, there is no problem and it’s only the whingers who think there is a problem. But if you talk to the grass roots players (those struggling to string a win or two together) girls are leaving the game to quickly or trying to find motivation to continue to play.
The current FFT programme of taking promising players and putting them in a rep squad doesn’t help matters very much. Why can’t the rep players be permitted to play for their clubs of a weekend but be released mid week for rep duty. It would help to spread the talent at least. The other aspect that must be considered is the rep pool allows the current U17 coach open slather to ‘influence’ players to stay together after the rep programme is finished.
FFT do really need to take a long hard look at the current female game. I spoke to another lady today who claims her daughter has recently quit the game to go and play rugby as she is tired and demoralised by frequent ‘thrashings’.
Comment by Blackjack — May 9, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
Well said Blackjack, yes the teams need to hang on to their players and we need ideas of how to do this. I would like to point out the wonderful job people such as Anne Jarvis and Tony Chaffey do in the Junior ranks (these are only a couple of the many). The northern suburbs, Central and Eastern Regions all work hard with their players and clubs and the amount of talent amongst the Regionals/clubs is amazing. Perhaps this is an area to be looked at in the sense of recruiting. Is there a programme in place (besides state teams) to encourage players to play for the women’s league? (I don’t know that’s why I’m asking), or do clubs actually make themselves known to junior clubs to encourage players to go forward?
Also maybe the cost of playing is intimidating. A junior fees are approx $55-80, however when you reach the women’s league it becomes approx $240 plus, now that’s a huge difference. Could this also be a factor? I don’t begrudge paying to compete in your sport and I know that this money is used in essential areas in soccer, but could this be a problem driving players to leave?
Maybe a survey of the clubs, coaches and players should be conducted asking detailed questions (anon) of why they feel their club is successful or what areas could be improved in their personal opinion etc. Clubs like Nelson could give their input and others could learn or adapt some simple strategies. This should be done perhaps by the women’s body and then a detailed report with advice on all areas (not just playing) could be given to all clubs for some ideas. I think some unity from all clubs is sometimes needed to make a sport successful and any ideas should be presented to offer a solution. Maybe a survey is not the answer but something is needed to help.
Another area is do we give all teams the opportunity to have a specialised coach come in from the assoc and give ideas? This could be done on a training night. This is not to say that coaches currently aren’t doing a wonderful job, as I’m sure they are, but sometimes a little insight into soccer from someone who’s been coaching for 20 years could help in some way. It is so hard to find coaches in the first place and this suggestion is in no way to offend but to offer alternatives. I applaud any one who is willing to put their hand up to coach as it is a hard job.
After saying all this, sometimes “time” is needed to nuture players and to establish highly competitive teams. I don’t know of many clubs or teams who have won many games straight up.
Maybe some ideas I’ve written may help, who knows, but any suggestion is better than no suggestion???
Comment by gunka — May 9, 2007 @ 6:16 pm
South Hobart 1 Zebras 0
Nelson 7 Eagles 0
Comment by sj — May 9, 2007 @ 11:29 pm
7-0 huh?? Wasn’t that match 1 v 2?
Sorry, that’s not funny. These types of scores will see New Town Eagles requesting not to play in Premier League next season too.
I am NOT having a shot at Nelson here I’m merely stating a horrible fact.
Some women will find this a turn off and cause questions to be asked. Questions such as, “Why bother”. By the same token, how are Nelson going to motivate themselves to play at the top of their game when they can achieve score such as this against the second best team in Southern Tasmania??
Goal differences are just ridiculous (played 6 games):
1. Nelson - For 56; Against 3
2. Eagles - For 33; Against 8
5. Knights - For 5; Against 50 (they have won one game)
7. Clarence - For 0; Against 35
There are still 12 full rounds to play.
What does this teach anyone (winners or loosers)?
Comment by Blackjack — May 10, 2007 @ 12:03 am
Right you are Abramovich…no faith at all. Every time we get a change at the top we are promised something different. The current hierachy will tell you the game is growing so they must be doing something right. What is right is that you have a number of clubs now instead of two adopting the grow-your-own-juniors principal…developing their own club structures etc. South, Kingborough, Metro, Clarence are all into this and Nelson, because of thier club structure and personnel have developed a good ‘feel’about their club. Some of the others will catch up but FFT have done NOTHING to assist this process. In fact, by putting state rep teams into the competitions, they are undermining it for the uncertain claim that they will produce better elite players. What they fail to understand is that the elite success is only the product of all the other hard work. To paraphrase golfer Gary Player …The harder I practice the luckier I seem to get. The same applies here. If FFT will help the clubs to do the groundwork the results will come at the elite end.
Unfortunately there are also a number of women playing in Division One that should be playing Premier League but if the will is not there not much can be done.
Comment by A whisper — May 10, 2007 @ 9:26 am
Well stated ‘A whisper’. Why is this not being looked into by the top guns in soccer. It seems that everyone else is unhappy and no support is offered. Too many holes in the process of supporting our younger players. Has this happened on the mainland? Has any one in tassie soccer actually sought advice from other leagues?
Surely this has happened elsewhere and what initiatives were put in place to help a problem such as this?
Comment by gunka — May 10, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
On the mainland we have had the same problem in the past where certain teams have dominated but now the others have caught up so in a 12 team league 8 - 10 are competitive. We have a program for young players and they also play premier league, when they were looking for clubs to play with outside the NTC program they were advised that they couldn’t all go to the one club so they were spread across numerous clubs…maybe the same should be adopted. But you have to keep in mind that players love playing with their friends.
Comment by Soccer Old Girl — May 10, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
Gunka how you solve a problem like this is dependent on what you want to achieve. What are the goals of the game in Tasmania? If the game needs restructuring what is the purpose of that restructure.
a. more players playing the game at all levels and both genders?
b. a plus a high(er) level of elite talent?
c. a plus b plus a healthy club structure?
d. a Tasmanian team in a higher league (V or A)?
If you are in it for the sport go a to d. If you are in it for other reasons go directly to d…do not pass go….
Comment by A whisper — May 10, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
As a player for many decades, and a coach of boys and girls for 15years, ex-club committee member and father of 4 good soccer players, I have read with amusement the comments above. Coaching girls was my biggest challenge, not because of the lack of skill, but because of the lack of support, from all quarters. A prominant Hobart restauranteur who’s son’s played against my daughter once yelled out to his prodical son “don’t let her past you, she’s only a girl” Unfortunately, Soccer Tas and others took the same view. I’ve observed my three elder children playing for years, and have seen the bias in funding and lack of support that leaves women’s soccer struggling to develop. I’ve seen and experienced the politics and crap club attitudes - sat on the bench for nearly a year myself, in Div 4 - after which I retired! Seen my daughter do the same, why? who knows, perhaps she had the audacity to question the coach. She then moved on to a club that cared, but this experience perhaps cost her a place in the national team, who knows. Anyhow, the solution is easy, give more support through chain to females at all levels and make sure your club is not sexist, and the coaching is supportive. From my experience, females are smarter and more mature at any age and respond very differently to men. The guffaw and smash’em attitude just don’t work, nor does lambasting female players or benching them ’cause they talk back. You need to better educate your coaches and your clubs to gain respect and retain female players for the future.
This talk about busting up Nelson is pure rubbish and is simply an excuse for the long-standing and fundamental failures in the system. My 8 year old is just starting out, full of enthusiasm and promise, but I fear nothing has changed. I hope Nelson is still there in 10 years time.
Comment by Soccer Dad — May 14, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
Hey Dad, can’t argue with much of what you said. Hope your little one has better luck.
Comment by A whisper — May 14, 2007 @ 4:13 pm